parking lot fall

FMDi · August 2005

Employee (in IA) was clocked out and had left building to go to her car. Fell in parking lot, apparently injuring her arm. Does not know if she tripped or "if her knee gave out." Does IA consider this work related? I know states vary.

pork1 · August 2005

FMDi: Welcome to the FORUM. You can probably contact your insurance carrier to ascertain which condition W/C or personal injury liability. In W/C it may keep any liability from rising to astronomical amounts based on smart "Lawyering". Personal injury liability could be very expensive and you will have wished that you had started it out right as a W/C case.

Check your carrier!

PORK

FMDi · August 2005

Thanks. We have told the care provider to treat it as work comp with normal post-accident drug screen & will proceed in that direction. Final decision will be up to the carrier.

LivindonSouth · August 2005

Pork is correct. In this state, that incident would be workers' comp. We currently have exactly that. The ee had clocked out, was leaving, had stepped from a short stairway onto the concrete parking lot, slipped and fell and shattered her ankle. Twelve weeks later we returned her to an office job to get her back on duty and now she's out with repeat surgery. Very costly, but, as Pork said, not as costly as a personal lines insurance lawsuit.

FMDi · August 2005

Frustrating, isn't it? Even the employee doesn't know what happened. There was nothing to trip on--perfectly flat, dry concrete parking lot.

nietra · August 2005

Work with your work comp carrier... I'm also in Iowa and if you see my post below we have an employee who tripped at work and our carrier decided it didn't meet the criteria for the two pronged test of "occuring as a condition of employment".

I'm learning so much about work comp from this one case - the agent assigned to the case is extremely knowledgable and willing to answer any question I have without getting annoyed (well at least not while on the phone with me).

marc · August 2005

It would count as WC in Nevada.

FMDi · August 2005

From additional research, it looks like Iowa case law would consider this compensable. As others have stated, I don't think we necessarily want to go where denying this could go. Have to pick our battles. Thanks!

Balloonman1 · August 2005

It would come under teh "coming and going rule" in many states WC. Used to not be recordable with OSHA, but may be now. Oh sorry.......there is another headache. x:D Typically I would not consider this recordable, regardless of what some idiot at OSHA thinks, just not related to working, and causal factor has to be work, how is that if they don't know what happened.

My $0.02 worth,
The Balloonman

FMDi · August 2005

All she can think of is that she scuffed/caught the toe of her shoe and tripped over her own feet. She was walking with another employee, and they don't know what happened either--just all of a sudden the employee was lying on the ground in pain.

LivindonSouth · August 2005

It's really not required that the employee be able to recall precisely how the accident happened, and in, I estimate, 70% of accidents, they have no idea the sequence of events or exactly what happened. Even if she did trip over her own feet, it's still the employer's responsibility. The only question is is it comp or liability. Comp is the cheaper route in the long run.

"Life is a tragedy when seen in close-up, but a comedy in long-shot."
Charlie Chaplin

FMDi · August 2005

I agree, and that's the way we're going.

nietra · August 2005

Don,

I have to disagree here. Again I'm learning a lot about work comp (in Iowa) with our denial situation going on..

In order to be covered under work comp the injury has to have happened as a condition of their employment. As I am learning thru our carrier that tripping over ones own feet does not meet this definition (at least here in Iowa).

As for as liability the employee would have to claim the employer was negligent. I'm not sure how they would prove negligence as the legal definition of negligence is "The failure to use reasonable care. The doing of something which a reasonably prudent person would not do, or the failure to do something which a reasonably prudent person would do under like circumstances. A departure from what an ordinary reasonable member of the community would do in the same community." Not sure how she would prove this when in her own words she thinks she tripped over her own feet.

Whatever · August 2005

I think I am envious. But before I do, please clarify one thing-if the injury happened as a condition of employment but the employee was negligent and the company was not, would the ee still collect unemployment in Iowa? Thanx.

nietra · August 2005

Unemployment they wouldn't be able to receive but I'm not exactly sure about work comp.

We recently had an employee who was sleeping on the job and was termed and we didn't have to pay unemployment. Negligence is misconduct and in Iowa we don't pay unemployment for gross misconduct.

I'm curious now to the work comp issue and I'll get back to you!

FMDi · August 2005

But in my experience, gross misconduct is VERY hard to prove, and Iowa ALJ's tend to side with the employee. The initial claim may be denied, but if the employee appeals, I think it's much more likely to go with the employee.

nietra · August 2005

We must get different ALJ's as our last few have sided with us for misconduct. The last one we had was the sleeping and we went into the appeal fulling expecting to lose but the judge said that was gross misconduct. Other cases of misconduct where we won include an employee playing internet poker on work time and one who submitted false documentation for billing purposes.

One that we did lose was an employee who yelled (ok, swore) at a client (we serve persons with mental retardation/mental illness) while in the community.

Whatever · August 2005

Sorry- I miswrote-I didn't mean unemployment, I meant workers' comp.

atrimble · August 2005

>In order to be covered under work comp the
>injury has to have happened as a condition of
>their employment. As I am learning thru our
>carrier that tripping over ones own feet does
>not meet this definition (at least here in
>Iowa).

We require employees to remove themselves from the premises when they're not "on the clock" (i.e. after work)? We don't let them stay over night. I'd think walking to her car, to the bus, to whatever conveyence she chooses to remove herself from company property could be construed as a condition of employment. Maybe if you provided a moving walkway for all employees directly to their cars, this liability could be removed. x;-)

Unless the employee was on property at an inappropriate time, otherwise known as trespassing, we treat all similar injuries as work related. We've had the same situation, and employee tripped on her own two feet, but had just been called to by a passing client who asked about business. She went back on the clock at that instant ("suffering work to be performed"), and we treated it as work comp. It could have been that your ee and her co-worker were talking business...

FMDi · August 2005

In my comments about the ALJ, I was referring to unemployment. Sorry!

Another scenario--at a previous employer in Illinois, employees had to cross a city street to a lot not owned by the company. An employee fell on ice in that lot, and our work comp carrier at that time told us we did not have to cover it because she was off the clock, and off the property. We chose to cover it anyway.

FMDi · August 2005

Nietra, I do think it depends on the ALJ. But we lost one recently when an employee had thrown pieces of metal at another employee, and then threatened to beat the "f***in' s**t out of whoever "ratted" him out. Seemed like gross misconduct to us, and the claim was initially denied, but the employee appealed and we lost.

FMDi · September 2005

Update--carrier has now denied claim, but not until surgery became a possibility. They are now telling us that injury had to have occurred during employee's working hours, and employee had clocked out at time of accident.

E Wart · September 2005

In GA would be w/c compensable. However, you shouldn't be or have to make this decision. Turn over to your w/c carrier saying alledged injury and let them investigate and they can tell the provider/doctor how to "bill". This way you are't the good/bad person involved and aren't making the wrong decision... the w/c carrier is.
Also, better to get them invovled in the beginning than to have the employee obtain an attorney and then they have to sort it all out through the attorney.
E Wart

parking lot fall

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